SQL Server Forum / Other Technologies / Clustering / November 2006
Looking for suggestions on specs
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Jake Smythe - 16 Nov 2006 00:37 GMT Hello,
We are wanting to setup a sql2k5 std cluster and are curious if we have good specs drawn out.
SAN has 3 arrays
SQL Group has the following resources: Network name IP Address physical disks for data (RAID 5) physical disk for logs (RAID 1)
Cluster Group has the following resources: Network Name IP Address physical disk for quorum (RAID 1) MS DTC resource
Is this a valid setup or a better suggestion? Thanks in advance.
Jake
Tom Moreau - 16 Nov 2006 00:42 GMT If you can avoid RAID5 and go with RAID10, that would be an improvement. As for logs, if you have just one DB, then RAID1 is likely sufficient. However, if you have many DB's with update activity, consider putting the logs on RAID10.
 Signature Tom
---------------------------------------------------- Thomas A. Moreau, BSc, PhD, MCSE, MCDBA, MCITP, MCTS SQL Server MVP Toronto, ON Canada .
Hello,
We are wanting to setup a sql2k5 std cluster and are curious if we have good specs drawn out.
SAN has 3 arrays
SQL Group has the following resources: Network name IP Address physical disks for data (RAID 5) physical disk for logs (RAID 1)
Cluster Group has the following resources: Network Name IP Address physical disk for quorum (RAID 1) MS DTC resource
Is this a valid setup or a better suggestion? Thanks in advance.
Jake
Jake Smythe - 16 Nov 2006 00:48 GMT Tom,
Thanks for the reply. I was curious if I have my cluster groups setup correctly. Is it ok to have the quorum and the MS DTC within the same group that share the same physical disk?
Jake
> If you can avoid RAID5 and go with RAID10, that would be an improvement. > As [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Jake Tom Moreau - 16 Nov 2006 00:57 GMT It depends. ;-) If you use a lot of distributed transactions, consider putting the DTC on its own disk. If you use little or no distributed transactions, then you can put it on the same disk as the quorum.
 Signature Tom
---------------------------------------------------- Thomas A. Moreau, BSc, PhD, MCSE, MCDBA, MCITP, MCTS SQL Server MVP Toronto, ON Canada .
Tom,
Thanks for the reply. I was curious if I have my cluster groups setup correctly. Is it ok to have the quorum and the MS DTC within the same group that share the same physical disk?
Jake
> If you can avoid RAID5 and go with RAID10, that would be an improvement. > As [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Jake Edwin vMierlo - 16 Nov 2006 10:29 GMT As a best practice I never put DTC in the Cluster Group (and therefore not on the quorum disk), my logic is that when you cluster, you want to omit as much as possible anything which can terminate the cluster.
Example: if for some odd reason the DTC fails, this immediately prompt the Cluster Group to move nodes. If again for some odd reason the DTC fails to com online on the other node, you might run the risk of loosing your cluster completely.
In my opinion I would leave the cluster group the cluster group, and create a seperate group with an IP, NetName, Disk(small) and DTC. This can then move independently from your cluster group, and in case the DTC has problems, you are able to work and troubleshoot this without effecting anything in the cluster group.
As you are in a SAN, it should be possible to present a small disk to this cluster for DTC purposes.
... my two cents ... Rgds, Edwin.
> It depends. ;-) If you use a lot of distributed transactions, consider > putting the DTC on its own disk. If you use little or no distributed [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > > > Jake Jake Smythe - 16 Nov 2006 15:20 GMT Guys,
Thanks for the input I truly appreciate it. One last question, hopefully
:), in the documentation I see that the quorum can be a relatively small size (something like 50 MB) what is your recommendation? I am assuming you guys have had a box in production so you'd know better than the docs I am reading. Thanks again for the input.
Jake
> As a best practice I never put DTC in the Cluster Group (and therefore not > on the quorum disk), my logic is that when you cluster, you want to omit [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >> > >> > Jake Edwin vMierlo - 16 Nov 2006 15:58 GMT Jake,
Microsoft still (since a long time) recommends 500MB for its quorum, see KB 280345
That recommendation might be larger than actually needed, however with 500MB I have never seen any problems ! I have alway deployed a quorum disk of 500MB minimum.
Rgds, Edwin.
> Guys, > [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > >> > > >> > Jake Jake Smythe - 16 Nov 2006 16:03 GMT Edwin,
Thanks.
Jake
> Jake, > [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] >> >> > >> >> > Jake Russ Kaufmann - 16 Nov 2006 17:25 GMT > Guys, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I am assuming you guys have had a box in production so you'd know better > than the docs I am reading. Thanks again for the input. 500MB is recommended. The reasoning is that 500 MB is the size when NTFS becomes more efficient.
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Rodney R. Fournier [MVP] - 16 Nov 2006 19:09 GMT Though I use 1 GB and Geoff does 2 GB (even math or maths for those in the UK).
Cheers,
Rodney R. Fournier
MVP - Windows Server - Clustering http://www.nw-america.com - Clustering Website http://msmvps.com/clustering - Blog http://www.clusterhelp.com - Cluster Training ClusterHelp.com is a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner
>> Guys, >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 500MB is recommended. The reasoning is that 500 MB is the size when NTFS > becomes more efficient. Russ Kaufmann - 16 Nov 2006 15:24 GMT > As a best practice I never put DTC in the Cluster Group (and therefore not > on the quorum disk), my logic is that when you cluster, you want to omit > as > much as possible anything which can terminate the cluster. I agree with this to a point. However, the cost of the disk for the MSDTC is pretty high when you consider other applications in larger clusters that can cause you to run out of drive letters.
Also, it is wasted resources in my opinion if it isn't ever used.
Since the Cluster team has extensively tested MSDTC in the default cluster group and have given it their blessing, I don't see any need for it having its own resources. Except, when the application uses it heavily.
> Example: > if for some odd reason the DTC fails, this immediately prompt the Cluster > Group to move nodes. If again for some odd reason the DTC fails to com > online on the other node, you might run the risk of loosing your cluster > completely. Set the Affect Group to disabled for the MSDTC resource and that concern goes away.
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Edwin vMierlo - 16 Nov 2006 16:10 GMT Russ,
I have considered all that before I posted, and must say you are absolutely right, and KB 301600 details the microsft view on this. Where on one hand they say "leave it in the cluster group" and in the same article they say "create a sepereate group".
For drive letters, and the "cost" of a small disk, I think each should look at their own config of SAN and cluster to determine if an additional disk is feasible. Then again... if you likely to run out of drive-letters, you might be pushing a solution with mountpoints already.
In regards to disabling the "affect group" property, you should always do that if you add the MSDTC into cluster group, however I have seen people forget this, or even admins who noticed this disabled and enabled it, because they did not understand the purpose of disabling.
in my opinion, a seperate group for MSDTC will never jeaporadise resources in the cluster group, while MSDTC in the cluster group might (in some circumstances)... its about minimising risk... and uptime !
Rgds, Edwin.
> > As a best practice I never put DTC in the Cluster Group (and therefore not > > on the quorum disk), my logic is that when you cluster, you want to omit [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Set the Affect Group to disabled for the MSDTC resource and that concern > goes away. Russ Kaufmann - 16 Nov 2006 17:28 GMT > in my opinion, a seperate group for MSDTC will never jeaporadise resources > in the cluster group, while MSDTC in the cluster group might (in some > circumstances)... its about minimising risk... and uptime ! So, tell me, what are those risks that you are trying to mitigate? I am not aware of circumstances (other than performance reasons) that would encourage it.
I would love to hear more.
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Anthony Thomas - 18 Nov 2006 18:01 GMT The problem is that, for SQL Server, if MS DTC does not have a dedicated network name, and fails over for any reason, if the Virtual DTC shares the quorum group, it MUST RUN ON THE SAME NODE as the SQL Server resource group, or SQL Server cannot connect to it.
In a dedicated resource group, DTC is always available to SQL Server.
Now, as a better alternative, if you are only running a single-instanced SQL Server installation, then allow the DTC resource to be assigned to the SQL Server resource group. Moreover, make the SQL Server resource depend on the DTC resource. This way, SQL Server will always be able to acquire the DTC handle on startup.
If you are running multiple SQL Server instances, then a dedicated DTC group is the only way to ensure each SS instance will be able to connect.
Sincerely,
Anthony Thomas
> > in my opinion, a seperate group for MSDTC will never jeaporadise resources > > in the cluster group, while MSDTC in the cluster group might (in some [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I would love to hear more. Russ Kaufmann [MVP] - 20 Nov 2006 17:14 GMT > The problem is that, for SQL Server, if MS DTC does not have a dedicated > network name, and fails over for any reason, if the Virtual DTC shares the > quorum group, it MUST RUN ON THE SAME NODE as the SQL Server resource > group, > or SQL Server cannot connect to it. It should be set to not affect the group.
> In a dedicated resource group, DTC is always available to SQL Server. It is always available as well in the default cluster group.
> Now, as a better alternative, if you are only running a single-instanced > SQL [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > DTC resource. This way, SQL Server will always be able to acquire the DTC > handle on startup. It will always be able to access it whether it is on the same node or not. The D is for Distributed, not Dedicated.
> If you are running multiple SQL Server instances, then a dedicated DTC > group > is the only way to ensure each SS instance will be able to connect. Citation?
You can only have one MSDTC per cluster, and you can have up to 16 instances per cluster. Are you saying that all of the 16 instances will not work properly unless they are all on the same node as the MSDTC? That would be incorrect.
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Anthony Thomas - 21 Nov 2006 04:48 GMT There's the way it "should be" and the way "it is."
The original KB article used to suggest you do exactly as you propose: to assign the DTC resource to the quorum drive in the cluster resource group.
However, along the way, DTC was modified, and the KB was updated to suggest that DTC needed to be in its own resource group.
The fact is that in single-instanced and multi-instanced configurations, we constantly had bind errors for one instance or another until we followed the new KB recommendations and created dedicated resource groups for it.
You would have to ask the DTC developers what changed to cause this to occur, but it has, nevertheless.
I do agree, however, that unless distributed queries are being executed, there should not be any need to create a dedicated resource group...but then, why not just run DTC on each clustered node, unclustered? If you are not going to follow the recommendation, why bother clustering the resource at all?
Sincerely,
Anthony Thomas
> > The problem is that, for SQL Server, if MS DTC does not have a dedicated > > network name, and fails over for any reason, if the Virtual DTC shares the [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > properly unless they are all on the same node as the MSDTC? That would be > incorrect. Russ Kaufmann [MVP] - 21 Nov 2006 15:37 GMT > The fact is that in single-instanced and multi-instanced configurations, > we > constantly had bind errors for one instance or another until we followed > the > new KB recommendations and created dedicated resource groups for it. The latest KB recommendation is MSDTC in the default cluster group.
> You would have to ask the DTC developers what changed to cause this to > occur, but it has, nevertheless. I think there is something else in your configuration that might have issues. I have never heard of a single issue with MSDTC in the default cluster group.
> I do agree, however, that unless distributed queries are being executed, > there should not be any need to create a dedicated resource group...but > then, why not just run DTC on each clustered node, unclustered? Because it doesn't work that way.
> If you are > not going to follow the recommendation, why bother clustering the resource > at all? The recommendation is MSDTC in the default cluster group.
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Anthony Thomas - 22 Nov 2006 05:34 GMT I respectfully disagree. And, as the MSDN article that Tom provided suggests, for a single-instanced SQL Server, leaving the MSDTC resource in the "SQL Server resource group" is viable.
The most recent article, however, has striped the Cluster Resource group "alternative" and has made compelling arguments for a dedicated resource group. Article dated November 1, 2006, revision 20.4.
Where do you get your information?
How to configure Microsoft Distributed Transaction Coordinator on a Windows Server 2003 cluster http://support.microsoft.com/kb/301600/en-us
Note When creating the MSDTC, moving the resource group into a group other than SQL Server or Exchange Server group is highly recommended. Creating the MSDTC resource in its own resource group and assigning it to a separate cluster group keeps the resource highly available.
Note If you create the resource in the same cluster group, and if Resource A has failed over, Resource B will also failover. When you create the resource in a different cluster group, even when Resource A has failed over, the resource B does not failover. Creating Cluster Resources in the different cluster groups decreases unnecessary failovers of the Cluster Resources.
Important After the new group for MSDTC is created you must create the Network Name, IP address and Physical Disk for Msdtc. You may already have the physical disk resource that can be moved into the new group. After the MSDTC Group is created you must create the IP address resource, Network Name resource and the Physical disk resources. You may already have a physical disk resource that must be moved into the new MSDTC group.
Sincerely,
Anthony Thomas
> > The fact is that in single-instanced and multi-instanced configurations, > > we [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > The recommendation is MSDTC in the default cluster group. Russ Kaufmann [MVP] - 22 Nov 2006 16:00 GMT >I respectfully disagree. And, as the MSDN article that Tom provided > suggests, for a single-instanced SQL Server, leaving the MSDTC resource in > the "SQL Server resource group" is viable. I really don't see it as a major issue. I wouldn't recommend it, but I wouldn't scoff at it either. If you are happy and it works, that is good news.
Have a great weekend! I can't wait for mine to start in 7 hours. <G>
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Jake Smythe - 20 Nov 2006 18:54 GMT Hello,
Ok now I am little confused. :) For best practices it seems that some are saying the DTC should be on its own cluster correct? In our configuration we are using two nodes and a san with three arrays. One for the logs, one for the data and one for the quorum and DTC (as it is configured now). Since we rarely use DTC is this a best practice scenario or should it be configured another way? If this is good what happens later? Can we move the DTC to another array should we need to? Thanks in advance.
Jake
> The problem is that, for SQL Server, if MS DTC does not have a dedicated > network name, and fails over for any reason, if the Virtual DTC shares the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> >> I would love to hear more. Russ Kaufmann [MVP] - 20 Nov 2006 21:12 GMT > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > later? Can we move the DTC to another array should we need to? Thanks in > advance. The MSDTC is not used in the vast majority of implementations. Unless you are using two phase commits in SQL, you will not use the MSDTC. Since you don't use it, you can put it in the default cluster group and save resources (i.e. IP Address and Disk resources) that you may need in other cluster groups.
See http://msmvps.com/blogs/clusterhelp/archive/2005/08/05/61718.aspx for more detail.
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Edwin vMierlo - 21 Nov 2006 09:51 GMT Russ,
I am not questioning your advice, who am I to do that, however please imaging the following:
1) an Admin person not disabling the "affect group" property ... that might affect the cluster (when MSDTC fails) 2) an Admin person enabling the "affect group" property ... that might affect the cluster (when MSDTC fails)
See, not everyone in the world run a "perfect" cluster, and there will be people with less experience then you ( ! that is an understatement ! )... hence "small mistakes" will be made. We are not perfect, we all do make small mistakes, especially if you are looking at new technologies, or technologies you have not implemented before, it is about minimising these risks.
When MSDTC is in its own group, it will never affect the cluster resources in the cluster group, I hope you agree on this ?
> > in my opinion, a seperate group for MSDTC will never jeaporadise resources > > in the cluster group, while MSDTC in the cluster group might (in some [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I would love to hear more. Edwin vMierlo - 21 Nov 2006 11:10 GMT Funny, right now I am working on a cluster issue where the admin has the "affect group" property enabled...
... it does exists... I guess this is the difference between "it should not" and "what is out there"
rgds, Edwin.
> Russ, > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > > > I would love to hear more. Tom Moreau - 21 Nov 2006 12:03 GMT This article has some useful bits:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/cossdk/html/cde 18bcb-ce2b-4d6f-9ada-baf658a7f87f.asp
 Signature Tom
---------------------------------------------------- Thomas A. Moreau, BSc, PhD, MCSE, MCDBA, MCITP, MCTS SQL Server MVP Toronto, ON Canada .
Funny, right now I am working on a cluster issue where the admin has the "affect group" property enabled...
... it does exists... I guess this is the difference between "it should not" and "what is out there"
rgds, Edwin.
"Edwin vMierlo" <EdwinvMierlo@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:erlIGQVDHHA.1748@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Russ, > > I am not questioning your advice, who am I to do that, however please > imaging the following: > > 1) an Admin person not disabling the "affect group" property ... that might
> affect the cluster (when MSDTC fails) > 2) an Admin person enabling the "affect group" property ... that might [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > "Edwin vMierlo" <EdwinvMierlo@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> > news:unUvxmZCHHA.5012@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > I would love to hear more. Russ Kaufmann [MVP] - 21 Nov 2006 15:42 GMT > Funny, right now I am working on a cluster issue where the admin has the > "affect group" property enabled... > > ... it does exists... I guess this is the difference between "it should > not" > and "what is out there" There are a bazillion examples of people incorrectly implementing technology. Are you going to try to configure your systems so that you can have all the errors you want?
High availability is much more than putting together a cluster. High availability requires proper training, proper experience, well documented processes, and well documented DR plans among the many requirements.
To me, it sounds like you are making excuses for the technology, which isn't the point at all.
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Russ Kaufmann [MVP] - 21 Nov 2006 15:40 GMT > Russ, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > See, not everyone in the world run a "perfect" cluster, and there will be > people with less experience then you ( ! that is an understatement ! )... People make mistakes all the time, which is why we offer training and which is why there is so much documentation out there regarding implemention of clustering and the various properties.
> hence "small mistakes" will be made. We are not perfect, we all do make > small mistakes, especially if you are looking at new technologies, or > technologies you have not implemented before, it is about minimising these > risks. Even so, you make it sound like the MSDTC will fail on a regular basis. That is not correct. If properly installed (and that is not difficult), it will run just fine.
> When MSDTC is in its own group, it will never affect the cluster resources > in the cluster group, I hope you agree on this ? If you do it right, it won't be a problem putting it into the default cluster group.
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Edwin vMierlo - 21 Nov 2006 18:18 GMT Russ,
you are right, lets stop this conversation, lets stick to KB 301600 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/301600
In this article Microsoft states:
"We recommend that you create the MSDTC resource in its own resource group, such as you would for Microsoft SQL Server, where you can do so"
and if this is not an option then Microsoft tells us in this article:
"If you cannot do this, or if you have a light-use DTC scenario such as a cluster dedicated to Exchange Server, proceed and use the Cluster group"
Actually, while reading this again, I suppose the truth is in the middle, for Exchange clusters --> cluster group, however the recommendation is still its own resource group where you can do so.
Sorry for all the confusion, it was not my intention to have such a long discussion on this, I guess just follow the Microsoft recommendation is the route to go.
rgds, Edwin.
> > Russ, > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > If you do it right, it won't be a problem putting it into the default > cluster group. Russ Kaufmann [MVP] - 21 Nov 2006 19:32 GMT > you are right, lets stop this conversation, lets stick to KB 301600 > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/301600 Who said anything about stopping this conversation. You are entitled to an opinion.
The facts are simple, though, and in large clusters, drive letters are a major constraint. Wasting one on a resource that doesn't get used (except in rare cases) is not efficient. Even if your cluster starts off small, it may grow, and part of HA is having an eye towards the future.
Let's use a simple analogy. You own an SUV. It has two rows of seats. You have two kids and a wife. So, you need four seats for four passengers. Once or twice a year, your dog (a small pomeranian) rides with you to the vet. Are you going to buy a third row of seats for that extremely rare occassion or are you going to have somebody hold him in their lap?
> "If you cannot do this, or if you have a light-use DTC scenario such as a > cluster dedicated to Exchange Server, proceed and use the Cluster group" Absolutely. If you have a light use scenario (which is almost always the case), then you should use the default cluster group and not waste resources for the MSDTC. That is Microsoft's recommendation as you pointed out. Do you want to discuss "language" in the article now?
SQL is also a light use scenario unless using two phase commits. In those cases, you should do as stated above and use the default cluster group. The only time you should dedicate resources to the MSDTC is IF there is a performance requirement like heavy use of two phase commits or, in the case of Exchange, heavy use of work flows.
The horse is dead, Edwin. No sense beating it anymore.
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Geoff N. Hiten - 21 Nov 2006 22:12 GMT Just to play devil's advocate, there are some SQL scenarios that make heavy use of DTC without using linked server queries or two-phase commits. I refer to ODBC transactions. Since ODBC doesn't have pass-through transaction support (remember, it was intended to abstract Jet/Access) it uses the Microsoft Transaction Server interfaces, which are implemented via DTC on a cluster. So, if you have lots of ODBC clients, you can inadvertantly have a high DTC throughput without meaning to.
Having said that, the original SAN problem that caused the KB article change only happens in rare cases on certain hardware platforms, but to retain hardware neutrality, MS made it a general recommendation. They later backed down and put the "light duty" words in the article.
And SQL 2005 supports mount points so disk drive letters are no longer sold by the each and thus in limited supply
Play nice.
 Signature Geoff N. Hiten Senior Database Administrator Microsoft SQL Server MVP
>> you are right, lets stop this conversation, lets stick to KB 301600 >> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/301600 [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > The horse is dead, Edwin. No sense beating it anymore. Russ Kaufmann [MVP] - 21 Nov 2006 22:44 GMT > Just to play devil's advocate, there are some SQL scenarios that make > heavy use of DTC without using linked server queries or two-phase commits. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > via DTC on a cluster. So, if you have lots of ODBC clients, you can > inadvertantly have a high DTC throughput without meaning to. True...
> Having said that, the original SAN problem that caused the KB article > change only happens in rare cases on certain hardware platforms, but to > retain hardware neutrality, MS made it a general recommendation. They > later backed down and put the "light duty" words in the article. Performance reasons have been fully acknowledged as an extremely good reason to put MSDTC in its own group with its own resources.
> And SQL 2005 supports mount points so disk drive letters are no longer > sold by the each and thus in limited supply Mount points, in Exchange at least, have been known to be troublesome. Is the same true of SQL?
From my experience, I just don't see mount points being used for SQL 2005. Perhaps it is lack of knowledge or just fear of the unknown. <G>
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Anthony Thomas - 22 Nov 2006 05:42 GMT As an alternative to mount points (yes, they can be troublesome, even for SQL Server), the use of a complete logical drive manager utility (note Veritas Software Foundation, the same as the LDM "lite" licensed by Microsoft) supports a better implementation for Volume Management, for stand-alones as well as clustered configurations.
Anthony Thomas
> > Just to play devil's advocate, there are some SQL scenarios that make > > heavy use of DTC without using linked server queries or two-phase commits. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > From my experience, I just don't see mount points being used for SQL 2005. > Perhaps it is lack of knowledge or just fear of the unknown. <G> Edwin vMierlo - 22 Nov 2006 09:16 GMT Russ,
not sure what horse died on you, I think I do not appreciating that remark :
To follow my logic, in my opinion people should follow Microsofts Recommendation
"We recommend that you create the MSDTC resource in its own resource group, such as you would for Microsoft SQL Server, where you can do so."
Clearly detailed in KB-301600 I am aware that this article has changed a bit over time and probably will change over time, but it is clearly documented and Microsofts recommendation at this moment.
I understand that there are reasons not to follow this, and I understand that lite use of DTC will perfectly run in harmony with cluster resources in the cluster group. As you said before "when done right", this will cause no problems. I am fully aware that microsoft and its cluster team has fully tested such scenarios, and that it is what they call "supportable". And I have come accross many clusters with the DTC in the cluster group, without any problems.
This, however, is not the point. The point is to give advice and help to the community, which should be based on Microsofts recommendation.
For advice to the outside world, I, for one, will stick with KB-301600 for the moment: 1) Microsoft Recommendation : create seperate group, where you can 2) lite usage : allowed in cluster group 3) dedicated Exchange cluster : should be in cluster group
Rgds, Edwin.
> > you are right, lets stop this conversation, lets stick to KB 301600 > > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/301600 [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > The horse is dead, Edwin. No sense beating it anymore. Russ Kaufmann [MVP] - 22 Nov 2006 16:04 GMT > not sure what horse died on you, I think I do not appreciating that remark Sorry, I am not going to get in a flame war. I have much better things to do.
MSDTC is really simple. Yes, you can put it in its own resouce group. Yes, that is a good thing to do if it heavily utilized. Yes, you can and should put it in the default cluster group if it isn't being utilized. Yes, by putting it in the default cluster group, you can save precious drive letters and it is really important when there is limited disk space like in many SCSI attached arrays.
The problem that I see, and it is often, is that people don't take the long-term view that they should and consider each decision and its full impact on the cluster today and in three years.
Have a great holiday, Edwin (assuming you are in US).
 Signature Russ Kaufmann MVP - Windows Server - Clustering ClusterHelp.com, a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner Web http://www.clusterhelp.com Blog http://msmvps.com/clusterhelp
Edwin vMierlo - 22 Nov 2006 16:18 GMT thanks, (not in US though)
> > not sure what horse died on you, I think I do not appreciating that remark > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Have a great holiday, Edwin (assuming you are in US). Geoff N. Hiten - 22 Nov 2006 17:18 GMT One slight disagreement here.
Often times personal experience can be at odds with Microsoft recommendations. Sharing both points of view is essential, otherwise we would just be extensions of Microsoft PSS/CSS.
Community <> Microsoft
 Signature Geoff N. Hiten Senior Database Administrator Microsoft SQL Server MVP
> Russ, > [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] >> >> The horse is dead, Edwin. No sense beating it anymore. Edwin vMierlo - 23 Nov 2006 08:43 GMT point taken !
> One slight disagreement here. > [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > >> > >> The horse is dead, Edwin. No sense beating it anymore.
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